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Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, July 14, 1998 11 AM PDT.

In attendance:

From SpiderIsland: Rusty Tucker

Sysops: mikael fredriksson, Jim Leary, Jim Smith, Bob Nunn,
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Rusty Tucker: Hey hey
mikael fredriksson: The feeling was better than in Boston last year
mikael fredriksson: hi!
Rusty Tucker: Did you go to expo Mikael?
mikael fredriksson: Yes
Rusty Tucker: From a distance, it seemed somewhat like a dud...
Rusty Tucker: low attendance, and nothing much new.
Jim Leary: much like the iMac
Jim Leary: The schools will be lined with them. Otherwise, they're a joke. A
quick way for Apple to pull in some cash
Rusty Tucker: The iMac is a really good school, especially upper-educational
machine.
Rusty Tucker: It may be getting to much hype for its own good tho.
Jim Leary: Good for education and a reasonable price
Jim Leary: But no one above middle school kids should invest in it. Add $500
and get a tower
Rusty Tucker: If I were sending a kid to college, I'd get him an iMac. Its
perfect for a networked environment.
Jim Leary: In about a year's time there will be a lot of pissed off people,
once they realize their money could have been much better spent
Rusty Tucker: It's not for imaging and publishing pros at all.
Jim Leary: an extremely disappointing machine
Jim Smith: It should do well, like PCs
Jim Leary: Sickening watching the Apple rep yelling and screaming about it
with all ignorant bystanders clapping
Jim Leary: G# shows a lot of promise...iMac is a disgrace
Jim Leary: G3
Rusty Tucker: I read that the attendance was only 30,000 at expo.
Jim Leary: quick financial fix for Apple...it will backfire on them
Jim Leary: seemed pretty crowded Wed and Thur.
mikael fredriksson: It was a different kind of visitors than in Boston more
corporate/company
Rusty Tucker: When we did Boston expo a couple yrs ago, it was 60,000 +!
Jim Leary: First year in NY
Rusty Tucker: first, and last :)
Jim Leary: It will be interesting to compare next year
Jim Leary: especially with OS X coming then
Jim Leary: I don't think so RT
Jim Smith: NY to much $ for vendors.
Rusty Tucker: yes, its moving back to Boston next year
Jim Leary: but then again, I wouldn't miss it. Once was enough for me
Rusty Tucker: Definitely too much when only 30,000 people show up for the
party.
Jim Leary: Tremendous lack of legitimate answers to questions even from
Apple tech support. They're too busy selling and hyping
Jim Smith: RT: I was thinking of going to SF's MW next year, where is best
place to stay?
Jim Leary: home
Rusty Tucker: :)
Jim Leary: couldn't resist
Rusty Tucker: I'd stay near the Wharf if you want to play tourist too
Rusty Tucker: If not, stay near the expo and you can walk everywhere
Jim Smith: Safety?
Jim Leary: yeah, beautiful city, just be careful which bar you walk into
Rusty Tucker: So, Mikael, what cool stuff did you see at Expo?
Jim Leary: depends what you mean by safety. Crime is like any big city. Its
other things you have to watch your back for...or should I say backside
Jim Leary: sorry, couldn't resist again. that's it for the jokes
Rusty Tucker: JS - SF seems pretty safe to me.
Rusty Tucker: There are some sections of town to stay out of, but a travel
agent can help you with that.
Jim Leary: yea Mike, what cool stuff did you see? I saw very little that
impressed me
Rusty Tucker: Jose tipped me on "Link UPPP!" a PPP that allows to 56k modems
to bond and give 112k throughputs.
Ê
mikael fredriksson: There was not that many "new and fun" things there, USB
products start to show up now
Rusty Tucker: from "FCR Software"
mikael fredriksson: RT they have it for ISDN 2 channels or 4 channels or for
binding 2 modems
Rusty Tucker: You can use it, if supported by your ISP, and you have 2
modems and telephone lines.
Rusty Tucker: For most people, fractional t1 is probably a better (cheaper)
solution.
mikael fredriksson: Or like one of my friends that got a cable modem
yesterday $45/mo.
Rusty Tucker: I'm a little uncertain about USB. For a lot of things ( like
hard disks ) it seems too slow.
Rusty Tucker: For devices that use the ADB/serial/parallel ports now, it
seems like a good thing.
Rusty Tucker: I keep hearing a rumor of Diamond coming out with a USB
modem...
Jim Smith: I think that most PC user do not know that, slow USB, compared to
SCSI/IDS.
Jim Smith: IDE (?)
Rusty Tucker: Right, but then again most PCs have been shipping with a USB
port for the past year, and the consumer didn't even know it. (Since windows
95 doesn't;t support it )
Jim Leary: RT, if my problem is related to too many CPU hungry apps, but
they are ones that I need, is there a way to fix that other than buying a G3
Rusty Tucker: You can try putting them on separate computers.
Jim Leary: The boss is willing to go for the solution...if he's sure it IS
the solution
Rusty Tucker: what are you running on your server now?
Jim Leary: PowerPC 8100/80 with 80 MB RAM. What other info do you need?
Rusty Tucker: what other apps, aside from TF?
Jim Leary: Cumulus and its folder watching app called Vento
Jim Leary: and then TF, Mail Server and UM
Jim Leary: that's it
Rusty Tucker: Were the transfer rates good before installing Cumulus?
Jim Leary: no
Jim Leary: been happening for a year
Jim Leary: only got Cumulus 2 months ago
Rusty Tucker: So what happened a year ago when the transfer rates started
going down?
Jim Leary: would more RAM make any difference?
Jim Leary: transfers from a remote computer to a TF folder were always 20+
minutes
Rusty Tucker: No, it does get kind of hard to debug these kind of problems a
year after the fact tho.
mikael fredriksson: JL Cumulus loves fast computers and lot of RAM if you
have a lot of pictures
Jim Leary: its not a year after the fact...its an ongoing fact for a year
Jim Leary: OK, so 8100 is too slow? and 80 MB is not enough?
Jim Smith: JL: what about a G3 or faster 604 CPU card?
Rusty Tucker: I'm not sure that I understand the difference. In transfer
log, what speed does the transfer log show.
Rusty Tucker: > It's not a year after the fact...its an ongoing fact for a
year
Jim Leary: G3 is fine if that will indeed make the difference, but its tough
to go for $500+ guesses/experiments
Rusty Tucker: My server is running on a similar computer, Power 601/120
Jim Leary: just trying to find alternative possibilities first...
Bob Nunn: Along with more ram in I would put in a larger secondary cache
both are cheap now replace the 256k with a meg. I don't know how stable the
machine would be with the card. I am waiting for someone else to test them
for me.
Rusty Tucker: Too me, it seems fast enough.
Jim Leary: everyone I asked at MacWorld pointed me back to the WebServer, so
here I am asking
Rusty Tucker: Definitely fast enough for one 56K modem line
Rusty Tucker: What are the transfer rates as reported by TeleFinder in the
Transfer Log?
Jim Leary: I heard some tips like turning off file sharing and AppleShare
when not needed. We'll try that stuff and see but somehow I'm not confident
that these will make a significant difference
Rusty Tucker: Jim, can you tell me the transfer speed??
Jim Leary: I'll have to look at the logs and send you my findings RT. Last
remote transfer attempt was a few weeks ago.
Rusty Tucker: What about downloads?
Jim Leary: In some cases of our European clients, I've seen 28,800 and many
times "unknown"
Rusty Tucker: That's the connect speed. I'm talking about the throughput
that TeleFinder reports.
Rusty Tucker: 28,800 is very good!
Jim Leary: I'll have to look
Rusty Tucker: OK
Bob Nunn: RT do you know anyone who has bought a g3 card for the 8100 or
some other variant.
Rusty Tucker: You should expect throughputs in the range of 2600 cps to 3400
cps on compressed files.
Jim Leary: very few have made them for 8100
Jim Leary: ok let me look
Rusty Tucker: If that's what your transfer rates are already at, then you
can add 5 G3 processors and still end up with the same transfer speeds you
have now.
Jim Leary: RT, I guess in file transfer stats, the only 4 digit number is
the one you are referring to
Rusty Tucker: copy and paste the line you see
Jim Leary: POWERPLAY 7/10/98 5:02 PM Stick In Glass.jpg 97-98 NHL 00:02:12
233 233 1817 0 19200
Jim Smith: I just look at my log and for TFNet it get to 3345 cps with about
7k transferred.
Jim Leary: 1817 is that it?
Rusty Tucker: yes, on a 19200 connect.
Jim Leary: ok, is that average
Rusty Tucker: That is within the normal range for a 19.2 connection
Jim Leary: WIGGUM 7/10/98 4:19 PM Jokinen (LA).jpg I-Z NHL 00:02:57 213 320
1239 0 28800 BGFL BBS
Jim Leary: OK here's a 28,800 and only 1239
Jim Leary: why would that be?
Rusty Tucker: That's a canceled transfer/
Jim Leary: MMMM. let me look for more
Rusty Tucker: Maybe the connection dropped.
Jim Leary: how can you tell if it was canceled by that line
Rusty Tucker: Also, unless they are using the newest client, Zmodem should
be used for highest speed transfers.
Jim Leary: OK, so the newest TF client software may help with this?
Rusty Tucker: With -any- background transfer, the transfer speed will be
affected if they are doing other things.
Rusty Tucker: Jim, everything you've shown so far is normal.
Jim Leary: OK, but I want to find a 28,800 connection that was not canceled.
How can you tell
Rusty Tucker: BGFL is failed.
Rusty Tucker: BGRX - is BG receive OK ( I think ) I'd n eed to look it up in
the docs.
Jim Leary: WIGGUM 7/10/98 4:10 PM Turcotte (H).jpg S-Z 1997-98 00:02:30 217
217 1481 0 28800 BGSX BBS
Jim Leary: BGSX?
Jim Leary: is that OK
Rusty Tucker: looks like 1481 cps on a 288 connection
Rusty Tucker: Send OK.
Jim Leary: well then here is 1481 on a 28,800...not close to your suggested
2600+ No what
Jim Leary: Now what
Rusty Tucker: That's right, any number of things could be the problem.
Jim Leary: many like that
Bob Nunn: Use Zmodem not BG
Rusty Tucker: For now, I'd say switch to use ZMODEM
Jim Leary: where should I begin
Jim Leary: what's BG mean
Bob Nunn: Background Transfer.
Jim Leary: the client should switch you mean...right
Rusty Tucker: Make sure that the client's setup has the baud rate set to
57.6k, and ditto for your server.
Jim Leary: ok
Rusty Tucker: Right, protocol is a client side choice.
Bob Nunn: Yes your rates will close to double if they are messing around
while files are transferring. Zmodem dedicates the machine to the transfer.
Jim Leary: Ok and get them the newest TF User ...will that help?
Rusty Tucker: Make sure they have a newer version of TF too, the latest beta
is very very solid.
Rusty Tucker: You can do all of that, and still get stuck with slow
transfers...
Rusty Tucker: If the dialup connection is not optimal, the modems will slow
down so that the data is transferred without error.
Rusty Tucker: You have just one dialup line?
Rusty Tucker: Jim, one or more dialup modems for the server?
Jim Leary: 2
Rusty Tucker: And what about the Internet connection, how fast is it?
Jim Leary: 2 modems 4 other nodes ...2 regular Internet connections, one
port 23 and one for mail. We have a 56K line
Rusty Tucker: OK, the 8100/80 should be able to handle all of that with
ease. Unless Cumulus bogs things down during a search.
Rusty Tucker: From what I've heard, Cumulus will essential lock up the
server when it adds an image to its database.
Rusty Tucker: If that's true its a big problem for transfer speeds.
Rusty Tucker: Do you have a spare modem/line that you can call into and test
with, in the office?
Jim Leary: not this minute, but I can hook one up
Rusty Tucker: You need to do that. Then you can call in and test transfer
speeds under more controlled conditions.
Jim Leary: TOTAL 7/2/98 2:11 AM dejected3.jpg TOTAL BBS MAIN 00:06:46 898
898 2268 0 0 BGSX BBS
Jim Leary: I think this client uses an Internet node
Jim Leary: where is the speed indicated here
Rusty Tucker: Pick a typical file, and send it back and forth taking note of
the transfer speeds.
Jim Leary: throughput is still only 2268
Jim Leary: but 6:46 is not too bad
Jim Smith: RT: If you have a network and transfer something and get 70,000
cps does that indicate anything?
Rusty Tucker: Once you can get a consistent test, you can play with the
variables, like Cumulus running or not.
Rusty Tucker: Its hard to calibrate a network, unless you're the only user
running on it.
Jim Leary: unless you introduce a search/cataloging option we can afford, we
need Cumulus
Jim Leary: turning it off is not an option
Rusty Tucker: 70,000 cps would indicate that TeleFinder has more than enough
CPU to run a few modems tho :)
Jim Leary: getting a server that handles Cumulus is an option before turning
it off. My preference is to keep TF
Jim Leary: that's what I'm here trying to accomplish
Rusty Tucker: Whatever Jim. That's a separate issue than understanding your
transfer speeds.
Jim Leary: No its not. Getting TF to handle apps that we need IS indeed the
issue. Don't give me whatever crap. You created the program, I'm looking for
help to keep it
Rusty Tucker: :)
Jim Leary: I'm catching all the crap over here from my boss because I keep
defending TF
Jim Leary: He's been pushing for a change...I've been defending
Rusty Tucker: I can't help you with your boss. You can either follow my
advice to help you understand this or not. That's your choice.
Jim Leary: "Whatever Jim" is not an answer. Its leaving me once again
without ammunition to defend the fort
Rusty Tucker: You're right, that is not the answer. The answer preceded
that.
Jim Leary: Or you can, as the program creator, find a way to upgrade your
product to handle apps such as Cumulus
Jim Leary: Don't use Cumulus is no answer either
Rusty Tucker: Here's what I said:
Rusty Tucker: Pick a typical file, and send it back and forth taking note of
the transfer speeds.
Rusty Tucker: Once you can get a consistent test, you can play with the
variables, like Cumulus running or not.
Jim Leary: Sorry I wasted your time Rusty. I thought you were always looking
for ways to improve your product
Rusty Tucker: I didn't say "dump Cumulus" OK?
Jim Leary: No you were suggesting turning it off and unless you come up with
a TF compliant search that we can afford turning off Cumulus is not an
option
Rusty Tucker: Sorry, you misunderstood my suggestion. I'm saying during s
short test, turn it off, to see if it has any effect on your file transfer
speeds.
Jim Leary: I'll do that and if things run faster lets say, what do I do
then?
Jim Leary: mmmm
Jim Leary: don't say dump Cumulus
Jim Leary: I'll reach through this screen
Rusty Tucker: You're getting ahead of yourself.
Rusty Tucker: It may not even be a problem, which we hope is the case.
Jim Leary: OK, I'm going to get the same laptop I used a few weeks ago and
try the whole thing again under both conditions
Jim Leary: with and without Cumulus. I'll e-mail you the results.
Rusty Tucker: Not just "with and without Cumulus"
Jim Leary: to what end I don't know, but id there is a chance to find out
the solution I'll do as you say
Rusty Tucker: Rusty Tucker: Pick a typical file, and send it back and forth
taking note of the transfer speeds.
Rusty Tucker: Once you can get a consistent test, you can play with the
variables, like Cumulus running or not.
Jim Leary: what other conditions \
Jim Leary: what other variables
Rusty Tucker: What other variables exist at your site?
Jim Leary: what if my test is consistently 20 minutes each way
Rusty Tucker: is 20 minutes good , or bad?
Jim Leary: terrible
Jim Leary: it should be 5-6
Rusty Tucker: how do you figure that, what file?
Jim Leary: 500K or about that
Jim Leary: should not take 20 minutes
Jim Leary: many of our files are actually 350-45
Jim Leary: 450
Rusty Tucker: At 3000 cps, you should be able to transfer about 180K per
minute.
Rusty Tucker: On both and upload, and download.
Rusty Tucker: What kind of laptop do you use?
Jim Leary: OK, sounds right, but I haven't gotten 3000
Rusty Tucker: 20 minutes figure to 416 cps.
Jim Leary: and why are many of my clients with 288 modems or better only
connecting at 19200
Rusty Tucker: Maybe their baud rate is set to 19200?
Rusty Tucker: In the older Modem Setups files, we preset the setups to 19200
since the serial ports could not handle anything faster.
Jim Leary: OK, I'll look into that too. Will the new TFUser make any
difference? Many have one a year old or more
Rusty Tucker: The new PowerMac ports can handle 115K or better
Rusty Tucker: and the modem setups file has changed to reflect that.
Jim Smith: Lots of user think the speed you set in the computer is the modem
rate and it should be the computer port rate.
Jim Leary: we have a client in particular that comes in at different speeds
every time, including today at 38,400. why is that
Jim Smith: good connection>>
Jim Leary: c'mon guys...the average computer user should be getting in at
faster than 19200. I shouldn't have to offer a course in modem speeds to our
100 clients
Jim Leary: they are coming in at fast speeds sometimes and other not with
the exact same conditions existing on my side
Jim Leary: TF is letting them in at random speeds
Jim Smith: there are 2 sides||
Jim Leary: is there / are there settings I can change to stop this?
Jim Smith: It's the telco
Bob Nunn: The variable is not TF it is the phone lines. You can't fix the
variables. I suggest that someone call back if they get a crappy connect.
The next time is usually better.
Jim Leary: RT, getting over to the Internet node side...where is the speed
indicated in the file transfer stats
Jim Leary: TOTAL 7/2/98 2:11 AM dejected3.jpg TOTAL BBS MAIN 00:06:46 898
898 2268 0 0 BGSX BBS
Jim Leary: st 2268 and under 7 minutes, that's not bad, but still should be
a little better
Jim Leary: how can you tell here how fast the connection is or can you
Bob Nunn: If they go to Zmodem over BG the rate would be much higher, That
would be the first thing I would do.
Jim Leary: OK so getting a G3, more RAM, a faster than 56K line and plenty
of HD space could be a colossal waste of money. You're saying its the phone
lines
Jim Leary: where does the client do that in their TF settings?
Jim Smith: Zmodem has been the best transfer over modem for years.
Bob Nunn: On the Mac its under special. You can make that your default if
you send them a settings file with the client.
Jim Leary: I'm sure Jim, like myself, my clients don't know what BG means or
if they are using it
Jim Leary: we're talking about magazine editors here, not programmers
Jim Smith: It the phone lines, you can read up on the 56k modems and most of
the info will tell you most of the time you will not be using it.
Jim Smith: 56K that is
Jim Leary: If there are measures I can and should take to optimize things on
either or both ends, then I will do so
Jim Leary: for the third time, will TFUser now, make a difference
Jim Smith: You can have the telco check your line(s)
Bob Nunn: BG is the default unless you change it. I am sure you send your
clients a copy of your own settings. Just make sure Zmodem is selected in
your settings file. Yes the new TFUser will make a difference RT improved
them.
Jim Leary: and 57.6 is the baud rate for modems...OK. Now what about those
using an Internet connection to use TF. Are there settings to optimize for
them
Rusty Tucker: brb
Bob Nunn: Well they have to have their settings set up to work well with
their ISP. that will determine what kind of rates they get, but get them to
use Zmodem transfers as well. It will really improve the rates
Jim Leary: streaming? windowed?
Jim Leary: Zmodem for the Internet users?
Bob Nunn: I use streaming if things are great. If there is line noise (shown
by resends) I go to windowed.
Jim Leary: OK, well at least I have some things to try now instead of
sarcastic useless answers. I thank the forum members for their help. Now I
go to it with experiments and leave you to talk of other things of which I'm
sure I'll have no interest (I've seen these chats enough times). Thanks
again
Bob Nunn: Yes everyone that transfers files should use Zmodem (streaming).
That is the default I send out with my settingss for my users.
Bob Nunn: Works both ways Jim. Your welcome. Most all of this is in the
manual
Jim Leary: thanks
Jim Leary: thanks
Jim Smith: JL: Luck:) 
Rusty Tucker: will be back on Thurs.
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	July 14, 1998 -- ©Copyright 1998, Spider Island Software