TeleFinder Chat Log

Text of TeleFinder Chat from Tuesday, November 11, 1997 11 AM PST.

In attendance:

From Spider Island: Rusty Tucker,

Sysops: Bill Gram-Reefer, Jim Leary, Jonathan Paisley, Ken Sutherland, Kevin Shearon, Jim Smith, Bob Nunn, mikael fredriksson,

chat logger: < < joined the chat> >

Bill Gram-Reefer: < < joined the chat> >

Jim Leary: < < joined the chat> >

Jim Leary: Isn't there supposed to be a chat about now?

Bill Gram-Reefer: yes

Jim Leary: < < left the chat> >

Jonathan Paisley: < < joined the chat> >

Jim Smith: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: < < joined the chat> >

Jim Smith: Hi all

Rusty Tucker: < < left the chat> >

Jonathan Paisley: hi

Bill Gram-Reefer: yo

Rusty Tucker: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: Hola!

Rusty Tucker: A little news: I should have a new TF User for Win w/ Find File available in a couple days

Ken Sutherland: < < joined the chat> >

Kevin Shearon: < < joined the chat> >

Jim Smith: Rusty: Is programing for win easier than Mac?

Rusty Tucker: not for me! ;)

Rusty Tucker: < < left the chat> >

Bob Nunn: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: sorry, a little problem w/ voices

Kevin Shearon: Jonathan, any luck with the HDS emailer recognizing files that aren't attached to emails in a TF mailbox?

Rusty Tucker: I don't find win programming easier than Mac

Ken Sutherland: any further news from apple regarding oracle?

Jonathan Paisley: Kevin: No, sorry, I haven't had time to look at that (look at anything, in fact) recently.

Jonathan Paisley: Kevin: I don't particularly want the mail plugin to always show files in the mailbox...

Kevin Shearon: ok thanks

Kevin Shearon: why not?

Jonathan Paisley: I could perhaps have it show files in a sub folder of a mailbox, or only show files in a mailbox after selecting a special link

Jonathan Paisley: I think that would be the best way

Bill Gram-Reefer: ?

Jonathan Paisley: Also, it wouldn't show mail items while viewing in this mode

Jonathan Paisley: Basically, I don't want to mix mail items and plain files

Jonathan Paisley: Supporting sub-folders would also be slightly more tricky

Rusty Tucker: I'm with Jon on that. It should just stick to email

Rusty Tucker: Files should be there as an attachment only

Kevin Shearon: they wouldn't be mixed you could have mail showing with the small mail icon and a file as a document icon, no mix up or confusion and a lot more versatile

Jonathan Paisley: rusty: Any easy way to create custom realms? Specifically, I want a plugin to be able to provide per-user access to a directory on the server webspace

Jonathan Paisley: eg a directory mapping in tf is set up for /mail_paths/ which maps to the 'mail' directory that User Manager uses

Jonathan Paisley: I then want to restrict access to subdirectories thereof depending on the user name that has logged in with a realm.

Kevin Shearon: But Rusty what about using your mailboxes to transfer display ads in acrobat format they aren't as email attachments, rather just a pdf file

Jonathan Paisley: Can I do that with a preprocessor or filter plugin?

Rusty Tucker: Why can't it be setup as a regular realm?

Jonathan Paisley: Because it needs to act depending on User Name, *not* access group

mikael fredriksson: < < joined the chat> >

Kevin Shearon: Rusty mailboxes are also drop boxes

Jonathan Paisley: ie, you don't want all 'subscribers' to be able to access all subscriber's mailboxes under /mail_paths/

Rusty Tucker: seems like you wouldn't want -any- subs to get there

Jonathan Paisley: this is my point

Jonathan Paisley: I want to restrict access to each subdirectory of that mapping

Jonathan Paisley: eg user Joe Bloggs can *never* access anything but /mail_paths/Joe_Bloggs/

Jonathan Paisley: The preprocessor plug would provide this functionality

Rusty Tucker: ok, doesn't the mail PI do that already?

Jonathan Paisley: I suppose I could do the following:

Jonathan Paisley: My requirement is that in the end, TF will access the mail directory directly.

Jonathan Paisley: IE I want to be able to do dir.spml listing of the directory and also let tf server handle the downloading of files

Jonathan Paisley: Thus Kevin's problem is solved

Rusty Tucker: i see

Jonathan Paisley: I think what I could do is the following:

Jonathan Paisley: Install a filter plugin that checks for references to /mail_paths/

Jonathan Paisley: If the request is unauthorized, change the request to a GET for some login page, or a realm challenge

Rusty Tucker: wsapi doesn't spec a good way to let a PI do authorization,

Jonathan Paisley: Once the authentication is presented, it will pass the request on unchanged.

Rusty Tucker: but we could do something custom.

Kevin Shearon: so if I use the HDS plug in after it is revamped it would show the email and their attachments and files in the mailbox?

Jonathan Paisley: Would the above work ok though?

Kevin Shearon: I just need it to see files in the mailbox not just email and its attachments

Rusty Tucker: like a PI that would check the req, then say OK, Don't Care, or Not Auth - challenge with 'mm' realm

Jonathan Paisley: Kevin: the way it would probably work is to provide a link to a special directory that would enable you to view the mailbox contents like any other directory that is listed by TF Web Server automatically

Jonathan Paisley: rusty: that's it. The filter could chuck of the request if it isn't authorized.

Kevin Shearon: special directories start to sound like the end user would have to know something extra then they already do now. That leads to non use or confusion

Rusty Tucker: but then there'd need to be a way to say where the file is to

Jonathan Paisley: the special directories are only a concern of the sysop, it would be transparent to users

Rusty Tucker: right

Jonathan Paisley: Let's suppose the sysop defines a directory mapping /mail/files/ which maps to the directory 'mail' that User Manager uses to store mail folders for users

Jonathan Paisley: When an HDS mail user that is logged in accesses anything under /mail/files/, the filter will change it to a request for

Jonathan Paisley: /mail/files/Jonathan Paisley/whatever

Kevin Shearon: but they would also have to be able to see the file if they are using the TF user because I don't know if they are using Netscape, IE or TF user to connect and download the file. i want to be able to drop the file in their box and forget about it

Jonathan Paisley: It would also check for special setups in User Manager and handle correctly

Jim Leary: < < joined the chat> >

Jonathan Paisley: /mail/files/P/Jonathan Paisley/whatever, if that is what the sysop is doing

Jonathan Paisley: Kevin: here is the scenario for the end user:

Jonathan Paisley: 1: User logs in as usual using HDS Mail to check their mail

Jonathan Paisley: 2: They click on a button/link that says 'Files In Mailbox' (or similar)

Jonathan Paisley: 3: A page appears (same as accessing BBS directories over the web) that lists the contents of their mailbox

Jonathan Paisley: 4: They download files as they wish from this page

Jonathan Paisley: They could also access subdirectories of their mailbox if they so wish

Kevin Shearon: that sounds good but the best case scenario is for them to log in and check their mail and it shows email and files as they appear in the box, right now they have to click on the "Files in mailbox" link

Jonathan Paisley: I really don't like the idea of mixing files and email together...

Jonathan Paisley: I suppose it is possible, but it's messy

Rusty Tucker: Yes, the mixing makes it more complex than it needs to be

Jonathan Paisley: It might also mean more work for me, since I need to handle the downloading of the files, rather than let TF Server take over

Jonathan Paisley: I suppose I could have an option 'display files in mailbox'

Kevin Shearon: wouldn't be messy, very easy, simple and straight forward for the end user. Could have small icons ID'ing emails and files

Kevin Shearon: but the downloading of the files would almost be identical to the downloading of an email attachment

Jonathan Paisley: that is true :)

Jonathan Paisley: Letting the mail PI handle it completely is also more secure

Kevin Shearon: all it would change is that it sees files : )

Jonathan Paisley: Intercepting requests to an insecure directory is slightly dangerous

Jonathan Paisley: OK Kevin, you've persuaded me. I'll add a per-user option that allows files in mailbox to be displayed alongside mail items

Kevin Shearon: I look at it from the point of view of my users and for them to simply check their mailboxes and see a list of emails and files is the easiest

Kevin Shearon: thanks Jonathan

Ken Sutherland: < < left the chat> >

Bill Gram-Reefer: if that thread is rather complete I have a ??about filter domain.config

Ken Sutherland: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: GA Bill

Bill Gram-Reefer: I have seen news recently about some other e-mail servers (Eudora, Stalker) that add some way of verifying domain sent-from addresses to stop spoofers, etc

Bill Gram-Reefer: Rusty, exactly what does filter domain do and does it cover any of those features and is there more to be done?

Rusty Tucker: It won't accept email from a site listed in the filter list

Bill Gram-Reefer: Adding names to the list just never covers the next one\

Rusty Tucker: its for filtering spam

Jim Leary: < < left the chat> >

Bill Gram-Reefer: I understand, but these spam guys just make up new names each time. The Stalker server seems to verify if in fact there is a verifiable rsent-from address. If not it doesn't accept the mail

Rusty Tucker: i see

Rusty Tucker: Mail Server doesn't verify return addresses

Ken Sutherland: < < left the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: you could lose a lot of mail that way. ie a DNS server is down or something

Bill Gram-Reefer: Sure, but I think that just adding names to alist , in my experience, is pointless.

Bill Gram-Reefer: Or it could accept the mail but send it to some TBD box

Bill Gram-Reefer: to be determined

Rusty Tucker: maybe so, i hate to mess with mail delivery too much though.

Rusty Tucker: I'm not sure that losing valuable email is a good trade-off to fighting a little spam

mikael fredriksson: Why not add a filter for mail from number@adomain.com ?

Bill Gram-Reefer: not losing but putting in a different pile

Rusty Tucker: who's going to manage the pile?

Bill Gram-Reefer: I see

Bob Nunn: AOL's spam list is stale and they don't seem to be updating it. That is the one most of us have been using. I wish there was a better way.

mikael fredriksson: Most junk mailers use a number before the @

Bill Gram-Reefer: There is also the business--i don't understand very well, where some POP servers are used as relay stations unwittingly for spam.

Rusty Tucker: actually SMTP servers can get used for that, the whole idea of SMTP is to relay mail

Rusty Tucker: that's why it works

Bob Nunn: It is easy to add to the list but the list will continue to grow and slow down system response. I know that after a while names should be pulled off the list as well. The spammers move on. I hate the fact that I get so much spam from hotmail since legit mail comes that way as well.

Kevin Shearon: < < left the chat> >

Jonathan Paisley: gotta run. See you folks later!

Rusty Tucker: yep -- once people stop responding to spam, it will go away

Bill Gram-Reefer: So as Mayor Willie Brtown (San Francisco) says:' learn to live with it?"

Rusty Tucker: but seeing how real junk mail hasn't gone away, this probably wont either

Jim Smith: just like junk phone calls;)

Rusty Tucker: exactly

Bob Nunn: Yep but you can have fun with those, spam is simply no fun.

Rusty Tucker: :) - like "yes, I'm "VERY interested in the Stock you have to sell, hang on one minute!"

Jonathan Paisley: < < left the chat> >

Bob Nunn: Honey its those carpet cleaners you were hoping would call. Pickup when you get a sec. Leaving the phone hanging from the table

mikael fredriksson: I loved it when I got a text message on my mobile phone from the phone company announcing a new service

Bill Gram-Reefer: < < left the chat> >

Bob Nunn: I used to send a fat jpeg of a can of spam in response but it never goes back to the source and just verifies your address.

Rusty Tucker: That's what's nice about TF's filtering, it reports "user not found" so you should get dropped from lists at that point

Kevin Shearon: < < joined the chat> >

mikael fredriksson: The problem is when they use a fake return address like 1234567@compuserve.com

Rusty Tucker: right, that was Bill's comment

Rusty Tucker: that you could have a filter that would verify the return address before accepting the email

mikael fredriksson: I only want to filter mail from a 123445(number)@annydomain

Rusty Tucker: that could be very time consuming though

Rusty Tucker: + some legit email addresses may not be verifiable for one reason or another.

Kevin Shearon: < < left the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: at least temporarily

Rusty Tucker: like any TFNet address for example

Rusty Tucker: or anyone getting mail via UUCP

Bob Nunn: Perhaps there is a way to keep up a better TF filter?

Rusty Tucker: too bad Bill left, I knew I'd come up with some good examples :)

Bob Nunn: List I mean.

Kevin Shearon: < < joined the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: > > It's been a week today since we put the last Mail Server beta version, and

it hasn't crashed since then. Nice !!!! ;-)

Rusty Tucker: ditto for me, the latest mail server b has not crashed once.

Kevin Shearon: Does anyone know how magic bullets works, or some way to get the "< " in the TF user email reply?

Rusty Tucker: Bob N, did you notice the < < left chat> > lines in the last log?

Rusty Tucker: and < < joined the chat> > lines?

Bob Nunn: After I posted it. I did a search and replace and thought I had it. Are you referring to where it calls to graphics.

mikael fredriksson: This is a example of what I want to filter

mikael fredriksson: Received: from LETTER1.LETTER.CO.JP by www.trifolium.be

with SMTP (1.0); 08 NOV 97 20:37:50 UT

Received: from mail.aaa.letter.co.jp (dd65-077.dub.compuserve.com

[199.174.207.77]) by letter1.letter.co.jp (8.8.8/3.4W21) with SMTP id

EAA15704; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 04:32:27 +0900 (JST)

From: 32674448@compuserve.com

Received: from mail.compuserve.com (mail.compuserve.com (205.5.81.86)) by

compuserve.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA02326 for < 87789123456@aol.com> ;

Rusty Tucker: Its just something I added to TF User's chat

Rusty Tucker: makes it nice to keep track of who's in and out and when.

Bob Nunn: Yes I did see it. I had to change the way I filter to catch it. I still have a flaw in the last chats html. Look at it for me when you get a chance.

Rusty Tucker: Bob, you could let TF convert it to html for you.

Rusty Tucker: Post the text file on the web site as .txt

Rusty Tucker: then load it up, then view source, then copy that

Rusty Tucker: and save it as HTML and put that up on the chat site

Bob Nunn: Will give that a try. Like to spell check it a bit. Have ruined my dictionary with you guys slang and abbreviations but it works okay.

Rusty Tucker: :)

Bob Nunn: My dictionary has many new words.

Rusty Tucker: I think there's a text to html file converter online here too

Jim Smith: CU later

Jim Smith: < < left the chat> >

Bob Nunn: I have used it a bit. Like it a lot. Not for this though have a system. Was doing the opposite. HTML first then view in NS and save as text for the other.

Rusty Tucker: I see, it seems like there's a couple of image links in there

Rusty Tucker: well, time to go today

Kevin Shearon: How do people get the "< " in their reply emails using TF user?

Rusty Tucker: see you all Friday, should have the new TF User for Win by then

Rusty Tucker: I use Copy and Paste :)

Bob Nunn: When I see you guys typing in code I know that I am in for it. Save it out for me. I cut and past mine in.

Bob Nunn: Bye now.

Bob Nunn: < < left the chat> >

mikael fredriksson: bye!

Rusty Tucker: There's also some Control panels and Command Bar things that will quote the clipboard

Kevin Shearon: copy and paste but what about the < < < < ?

mikael fredriksson: < < left the chat> >

Rusty Tucker: bye!

Rusty Tucker: < < left the chat> >

Kevin Shearon: < < left the chat> >

puppetmaster: < < joined the chat> >

puppetmaster: < < left the chat> >